monogomy

“Are You Monogamous or Polyamorous?”–THE WRONG QUESTION

August 22, 2016 By Arcane 1 Comment

This article originally appeared on ArcaneAdvice.com.

It’s time someone addressed a Single MASSIVE MISCONCEPTION regarding this question which gets asked in almost every Alternative Sexuality genre, including the BDSM / Fetish Scene. The answer will hopefully make you THINK, and it is interesting to note that we here in the BDSM Community have a few extra philosophical points to address on this question…. this utterly ERRONEOUS question. Far too often people make bad choices because they believe this question to be like a compass when in fact, as I will show you in a moment, it is more like a magnet attached to a bird flying in circles around the compass. The result is NOT a better idea of your partner. Instead the result of asking this question is almost always a mis-reading, misinformation (not necessarily intended), and getting only farther from a viable, useful answer.

How often does an individual in the world of dating get asked, “Are you Polyamorous or Monogamous?” I find the question pops up all the time. It is always asked as a Black & White issue, an On/Off switch, and the one making the inquiry always acts as though the answer will give them some incredible understanding, a singular “truth” about the person to whom they are speaking. Unfortunately, the question itself is founded on thinking that is so Completely Reductionistic that it is basically the equivalent of asking, “do you think Europe is Bad or Good?” Any sane person would say they like some countries, like others less, had a great time in one location, had a bad time in another location, etc etc. Agreeing to even answer a question like “do you think Europe is Bad or Good?” is agreeing to be viewed as a generalizing fool. The question itself makes zero room for the actual variety of experiences one can have in Europe, individual tastes, native languages spoken (which can affect one’s experience), preference of climate, and a hundred other factors.

Equally, the question, “Are you Polyamorous or Monogamous?” is setting up an EXTREMELY LIMITED set of options that in NO WAY reflect that Actual, WIDE Parameters that are involved in this genre of Human Sexuality. When someone inquires asking THE WRONG QUESTION, “Are you Polyamorous or Monogamous?” most of the time they have an Erroneous Definition of Polyamory in their mind to begin with. This foolhardy and uninformed definition of Polyamory tends to equate to one EXTREME end of polyamorous activity only, namely the “full-swap orgy.” So the WRONG QUESTION, “are you Polyamorous or Monogamous?” is IN FACT generally asking, “Do you never, EVER have any form of sexual contact with anyone besides your chosen partner, or do you jump into full orgies where everyone has sex with everyone else?” This is an absolutely IDIOTIC QUESTION that does not in any way, shape, or form take into consideration the FULL SPECTRUM of activities and degrees of involvement that lay between these two absolute extremes. Its like walking into an ice cream parlor with DOZENS of flavors and asking the person with you to choose between vanilla or chocolate — what about all the MANY OTHER flavors?? Its like asking a new prospective BDSM play partner if their style is about canes or pony-play — what about the HUNDREDS of other ways to explore BDSM? The RIGHT QUESTIONS would be, “what are your favorite flavors?” and “what kinds of BDSM activity are you into?”

You probably are already seeing where I am going with this, but before we really tear into it, lets step back and look at the issue on a few basic levels, starting with Psychobiology. Fasten your seatbelts – this is going to be a crash course in Psychobiology (if you want an INTENSELY deeper scientific understanding of these things, read “The Evolution of Desire” by David Buss).

To begin with, think of humans as effectively Cave People who learned to drive cars. The bulk of our mating habits have not changed in a million years. All that has really changed are the conventions of “the tribe,” aka Society, that have been layered on top of these same primal instincts that still rule our DNA’s desire to make more DNA.

Consider the prehistoric basis of Mating Impulses:

1) No matter how much you may want to shake your fist at the sky and despise biology, the male mammal is designed to be able to procreate with multiple females. This is biology. The male half of most species produces enough semen to inseminate a vastly large number of females, and the actual number of partners is decided by the Mating Dance between males & females offset by Male Competition for access to fertile females. Females retain what Psychobiologists call “female choosiness,” the same process in many species wherein the female selects an inseminating male based on his genetic traits as evidenced in an overt manner through one of several means: physical prowess, leadership, health of skin / brightness of feathers, strength of presence / magnitude of song, access to and control of resources, etc. Her selection is equally offset by competition with other females for access to the best genes of the males. Human Civilization has modified these areas and what once was the highest criteria for mate selection back in cave man days is now sublimated to an entirely different set of criteria for modern society. For example, someone with almost zero physical prowess – i.e. one who would have been a lousy hunter in cave man days – might still register well for mate selection due to a secure access to resources (high income or above-average social connections, etc) in modern times.

2) The human female is designed to create one baby per gestation on a normal basis, and the human gestation period of nine months is one of the longer gestation periods of mammals in general.

3) Monogamous habits tend to be created with mammals that have longer gestation periods with fewer offspring produced. The shorter the gestation (i.e. weeks) and the larger number of offspring produced, the more likely the species will have polyamorous habits. As the gestation period of a species grows into many months and the number of typical offspring gets lower, the likelihood of Pair-Bonding increases. For example, Blue Whales who produce one calf with a gestation period of up to 12 months tend to be monogamous. This is not a hard & fast rule however. Elephants have a 22 month gestation period and are absolutely not monogamous as a rule. Wolves have a gestation period of only about 2 months, yet long-term monogamous pair-bonding amongst wolves is quite common.

4) The longer debilitated state of the pregnant female mammal with a long gestation period which produces few offspring will induce behavior in her to insure the presence of the male mammal as provider-protector during the debilitated state and early stages of growth in the offspring. The male mammal in the same scenario tends to stick around to insure the survival of his DNA / survival of the species. These behaviors of the male and female happen on a DNA level – it is a subconscious process that can be viewed all over the animal kingdom. It is a hard-wired response. In cave-man days when these behaviors became hard-wired, the survival of offspring was very dubious at best. In the modern world elements such as clean water, medicine, and social safe-guards tend to insure a much higher survival rate of offspring.

5) The average person in the modern world grows up with the perception that survival of one’s offspring will pretty much be a given (barring negative anomalies). Thus, on a purely biological level, the male has almost no actual need to worry about their offspring (aka their DNA) staying alive to make more DNA and pass along the genetic legacy. The female equally knows on a purely biological / DNA level that the male’s presence as protector is less needed due to social safe-guards. Her debilitation during the latter phases of gestation is still an issue, and the lifestyle in which the child will be raised is now more the concern of both parents rather than whether or not the infant will survive.

Thus the modern Human Condition, aka Modern Civilization, provides assurances that defy some of the hard-wired behaviors surrounding any biological basis for monogamy in the modern human mammal. To put it more simply, the realities of the modern world in many ways (but NOT ubiquitously) provide cause to over-ride the monogamous impulses from cave man days. Monogamy in the modern world is therefore more of a STYLISTIC CHOICE than a biological necessity. This stylistic choice can be the result of peer pressure, religion, social standards of a local community, or even perfectly reasonable personal desire.

Alright. That concludes your Intro To Psychobiology lesson. Now lets see how all of this dovetails into an understanding of why – and how – people seek out multiple sexual partners (or NOT), and even more importantly, the VARIETY of ways in which this happens.

Consider the word “Variety.” It denotes a multitude of choices. It denotes a stark contrast to a simple selection between merely two polarities. Variety is the opposite of Dichotomy. Variety connotes a LACK of the described subject as being a black & white choice. In the FETISH SCENE we experience a VAST Variety in the ways that we as Fetish Folk express and experience our BDSM Lives. There are literally HUNDREDS of ways to play in the BDSM Universe. Bondage, flogging, gags, fur, riding crops, role play, blindfolds, paddles, foot worship, dominance, submission, canes, protocols, fetish fashion…. the list of ways a Fetishist can Safely and Sanely express themselves is almost ENDLESS. This VARIETY we experience is like a giant smorgasbord of choices and naturally we gravitate to the “dishes” and “flavors” of Fetish Experience that most please our palate. Some flavors are more common, like Bondage, while other flavors are for people with more exotic tastes, such as High Protocol D/s.

KEY POINT:
So too is there a VARIETY of ways in which Human Mating Habits, as expressed in single or multiple partner selection, can occur. It is NOT a black & white issue. Hold This Thought In Mind.

CONCESSION FOR THE HARD-LINERS:
Ok. Yes, lets establish a monogamous baseline at ONE END OF THE SPECTRUM of this Variety Of Human Mating Habits for the purpose of comparison. We will call this “True and Total Monogamy.” The definition of this form of Human Sexuality equates to an absolute, often religiously supported, adherence to the prescript that both people in the couple will not EVER experience sex with anyone besides their partner. Not under any circumstance. Not even making out with an outsider. Not even kissing. We will also presume for the sake of discussion that in said couple’s report of their being hard-line monogamists that they are both being truthful in their reports, that neither has EVER (not once!) fooled-around nor cheated on their partner. Needless to say a menage-a-trois is out of the question. Not even once.

Now ask yourself: How many hardline monogamists – as defined above – do you personally know? Who have NEVER EVER cheated, never had an affair, never fooled around, never had a menage-a-trois with their partner (and never will), and who you will take it for granted that their report of this is absolutely honest from both people?

Don’t jump into cynicism! I am not advocating that AT ALL. I personally know couples who fit the above description. Whether or not they will adhere to this monogamy forever can only be taken on their word. I DO believe it is possible for a couple to be so infatuated and pleased with their partner that others just do not interest them at all. I also know that EVERY Long-Term Relationship takes EFFORT, DESIRE, and WORK from both people involved if they are to create a genuine and flourishing, healthy relationship. For the couples for whom I do believe they are honest in their long-term monogamy, they have the overwhelming quality of Mutual Respect for their partner, and a clear desire to Succeed together. If sex with others crosses their mind it is immediately dismissed as a lower value than the high value of the one they are with, every time, and this is a happy choice, not a brow-beaten concession. This kind of a couple often expresses themselves in a “team-of-two” manner, obviously bouncing off each other and working well together in general.

NONETHELESS, I bet a LOT of you answered the “How Many Do You Know?” question above with an answer equating to “Not Many.” THINK about why that is?
Is it that the couples who do not fit this bill had one partner cheat on the other? Is it because they had a single menage-a-trois? Is it because they are hardcore, full-swap swingers? Is it because the female half has outside girlfriends? Is it because they are in a D/s family? Is it because they play with others at the BDSM Club, doing scenes that involve kissing or fondling an outsider in public? And in all of these cases are they always couples having trouble? Or are they sometimes quite happy in their chosen expression? Do they have the situation well-negoiated? Do they play-it-by-ear with some basic rules and understandings? Are they tightly bonded and highly in-tune with the knowledge that outsiders are fun but stay outsiders? Do they have a regular third partner? Does that partner stay over and sleep in their bed or does the third person go home after play?

WHAT’S THAT YOU SAY? That “well there is a VARIETY of ways that Couples Express Their Sexuality With Outsiders, that its NOT a BLACK & WHITE subject.”
Bingo, Bulls-Eye & Kudos.

Lets digress from the BDSM / Fetish community for a moment and look at the world of SWINGERS. Non-Swingers tend to apply ONE DEFINITION to people in the Swinging Community, which (Erroneously) says that, “All Swingers are Polyamorous.” But lets look at THE REALITY of the VARIETY within the SWINGING Scene.

Swingers have a wide VARIETY of ways they play. One couple in the Swinging Scene might enjoy the “orgiastic” vibe of a Swinger party yet the couple ONLY PLAYS WITH THEIR OWN PARTNER – they just enjoy the voyeuristic aspect and openly sexual vibe. Another couple in the Swinging Scene might only have the female half play with other women in a very light fashion, just kissing and fondling in a playful way. Yet another couple might have both the man and the woman kissing and fondling a third. Still a different couple might go to Swinger Events to hook up with a third woman to take her back to their room and go to town upon her (menage-a-trois). Yet a different couple might express their Swinging nature by having the man watch as his female partner goes down on a third partner. Another couple might have a mutual ok to engage in anything up to oral sex, but no penetration, with outsiders. A different couple engages in “full swap” where anything goes at the party but all outside activity stays at the party. Yet another couple enjoys having the woman hook up with another woman while the male partners on both ends simultaneously play with their own woman. And this is NOT a complete list.

THE POINT:
Even in the Swinger Scene there is a WIDE VARIETY of ways that “polyamorous” activity expresses. So for the sake of discussion lets make up a false fact that says that Swingers have specifically 15 different ways that they can express ANY form of sexuality that involves others, from mere voyeurism through to full-swap.

Now lets add the number of ways a couple can play with an outside partner WITHOUT being members of the Swinger Scene:

— menage-a-trois on a regular basis (say monthly)
— menage-a-trois seasonally
— menage-a-trois maybe a few times a year
— menage-a-trois once with their partner just to satisfy mutual curiosity

Side Note: PLAYBOY Magazine ran a survey in the 1970’s where they interviewed 3000 men and woman across America. They asked people to report their #1 sexual fantasy. UNIVERSALLY the #1 answer of both men and women was “menage-a-trois” which is why it tops the current list I am creating here. As a fun additional note, the #4 choice of men and #5 choice of women was some kind of BDSM fantasy. 😉

Continuing with the list of ways a couple can play with an outside partner WITHOUT being members of the Swinger Scene:
— they can have a full-time third partner, i.e. be in a Trio
— they can both have multiple partners, i.e. have several outside play partners as in an “open relationship”
— they can be in a poly family / poly D-s family
— they can be monogamous in their home city and play with outsiders only when they travel
— they might stick to only BDSM Play on an outside sub, topping the third person together but no penetration
— they might orchestrate BDSM scenes with outsiders only at clubs, never at home
— the Dom might train multiple subs yet only have sex with his “Alpha”
— the couple might live as Dom & sub at home, yet enjoy vanilla play outside
— the couple might belong to a private group who enjoys BDSM play with the other members of the group
— the Dom might allow the sub to play with an outsider while the Dom observes
— the Dom might have several full-time slaves besides their “Alpha” who are sexual partners, and these outsiders may or may not spend time at the couple’s house
— the couple might live as hardcore Dom & sub yet they only act as Dual Doms to any outsiders, whether play partner, slave or otherwise
— the couple might be monogamous in their home city but have a negotiation regarding being allowed to play with others when apart from each other for a length of time
— the couple may have unusual rules around intimacy with outsiders, such as no kissing on the lips, or a certain toy or toys that are never, ever used on outsiders
— the couple might be completely Tantric with each other, yet merely casual with all outsiders

ETC, ETC, ETC!

For the sake of discussion, lets also create a false “fact” here that says this list could at least contain 30 variations of ways a couple can play with an outside partner WITHOUT being members of the Swinger Scene.

The point I am trying to make here is that if you take the 15 ways Swingers express any form of sexuality that involves others / outsiders, AND you add the above 30 or so ways a couple can play with an outside partner WITHOUT being members of the Swinger Scene, you have (and this is a mere, off-the-cuff ESTIMATION) at LEAST 45 different ways that a couple can express ANY form of sexuality that involves others!!!

As a philosophical side-note, a friend of mine put forth the proposition that 24/7 Lifestyle D/s is inherently Polyamorous. I do not know that I necessarily agree as I am a firm believer in the sheer magnitude of the magic a tightly bonded Master and slave can experience. However for the sake of presenting all sides, here is how his argument went:
A Master wants his cherished slave to be his “Everything Girl.” This is why he takes so much time and joy in her Training. Yet the reality of most people is that they cannot be all things to any one person. Thus the Dom inherently encounters Needs where a second or third submissive is required to fill those needs. An example of this is how a Dom/me might need a slave for cooking and domestic, another slave to tend the garden, a sexual / passion slave, a slave for hardcore BDSM play, a slave for pet play, a slave with secretarial skills, etc. If the Dom can have all these in One Person that is fantastic and a true blessing. Otherwise the 24/7 Lifestyle D/s structure would dictate (according to my associate) that additional people would need to be brought on board.
I understand where my associate is coming from but I do not necessarily agree that outside people “Must” be brought in. I think it reverts back to the discussion above that ONE VARIATION of Polyamory in 24/7 Lifestyle BDSM would be where the Dom has multiple subs to fulfill multiple needs. In some variations the Dom would have a variety of degrees of sexual connection with these additional subs, while in other variations the Dom would reserve varying degrees (or all) of their sexuality for their primary partner / slave. So even if my associate was correct in his assumption (a debatable one at that) there would still be a VARIETY of WAYS that this would be able to be expressed.

Are you getting the picture yet?
One Word: VARIETY

THUS:
There are practically as many ways for a couple to express ANY form of sexuality that involves others, as there are FETISHES THAT ALL OF US IN THE BDSM SCENE ARE ABLE TO ENJOY! This is a MASSIVE ASPECT of the BEAUTY of the GREATER GLOBAL BDSM SCENE – the VARIETY of ways that we all get to Express Ourselves!! 😀

Would you walk up to a Dom and ask, “are you Skilled or Unskilled?”
Of course you would NOT! Trying to drop a Dom into a bucket of Skilled verses Unskilled is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION. You would want to know WHERE the Dom’s skills were, what they were experts at, what they were semi-skilled at, whether or not their level of skill in certain Fetishes matched your desires of where you enjoyed playing and exploring.

Asking if you think Europe is “Good or Bad” is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION.
You would want to know what parts of Europe a person loved and what parts they hated because THAT INFORMATION IS USEFUL (albeit utterly subjective and probably wise to cross-reference).

Would you ask someone, “Do you have Hard Limits?” and accept a Yes or No answer? Of course NOT! You would want DETAILS because people have a MASSIVE VARIETY of different kinds of Hard Limits. You would ask what is the Exact Nature of the person’s limits, because THAT INFORMATION IS TRULY USEFUL. Phrasing it into a Black & White dichotomy, a Yes or No question is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION.

Knowing the VARIETY of ways that Polyamory can manifest in a healthy fashion (PLUS the realities of all the non-sanctioned non-monogamous activities that occur as a result of bad communication and dishonest reporting) means that asking someone the black & white question, “Are you Monogamous or Polyamorous?” is ASKING THE WRONG QUESTION.

THE RIGHT QUESTIONS and HOW YOU ASK THEM:

WHAT NEEDS TO BE ASKED are questions that, JUST LIKE NEGOTIATING with a new Dom or sub, help you discover the Exact Nature of the person’s desires, limits (both Hard and Soft), and EXACT PROCLIVITIES when it comes to the subject of expressing ANY form of sexuality that involves others.

It might be safer to say that there are TWO GOOD QUESTIONS:
1) “Are you a believer in and do you desire Hardcore, Hardline, True & Total Monogamy (at the absolute far end of the spectrum)?”
For the sake of brevity, perhaps Question #1 could be abbreviated:
“Are you a practitioner of Hardcore Monogamy?”

If the answer is NO (especially since quite often the HONEST answer would tend to be No, though again I think that if Hardcore, Hardline, True & Total Monogamy is your desire that you SHOULD stick to your beliefs and pursue finding that special someone who can truly reciprocate that back to you), then the second and MAIN QUESTION that is the RIGHT QUESTION TO ASK is:

2) “HOW do you express your polyamory?”
i.e. which of the 45 or more ways are YOUR ways?
or simply, “What is your preferred STYLE of Polyamory?”

THIS QUESTION will get you MUCH MUCH closer to seeing if the WIDE VARIETY of Styles Of Polyamorous Play line up for the two of you, where there may need to be some negotiation, where limits may be encountered, etc.

CASE IN POINT:

— THE WRONG QUESTION is about making a BLIND and IGNORANT JUDGEMENT CALL based on generally FALSE INFORMATION and REDUCTIONISTIC THINKING. The BLACK & WHITE thinking of the WRONG QUESTION only really ends up placing limitations on YOURSELF. The FUNDAMENTALISM of the WRONG QUESTION flies in the face and DENIES the basic prescript of intelligent NEGOTIATION (r.e. styles of poly play), a prescript required at the very foundation of healthy BDSM. Bottom Line – Fundamentalist Thinking and BDSM do NOT tend to make good bedfellows.

— THE RIGHT QUESTIONS, on the other hand, are an INTELLIGENT INVESTIGATION into your prospective new partner’s beliefs in an area as wide as discerning their preferred Fetishes. THE RIGHT QUESTIONS glean intelligent DETAILS of how they HONESTLY tend to proceed. THE RIGHT QUESTIONS set a person at ease, as they show that you understand that there are MANY ways to express Polyamorous activity. It shows you respect the individual take on the topic, just as you would respect someone’s individual take on BDSM, even if their preference is not your preference. LIKE BDSM, knowing someone’s Preference allows for Healthy Negotioation. When you acknowledge the SPECTRUM of possibilities by asking the RIGHT QUESTIONS, you OPEN DOORS and CREATE OPPORTUNITIES to explore and enjoy additional forms of mutually satisfying activities. You and your prospective new partner are then communicating in a way that is Honest, Forthright and, if the negotiation in this area is successful, may well contain additional ways for the two of you to have fun and explore together.

THE WRONG QUESTION or the RIGHT QUESTIONS.
Take your pick.

THE END RESULT:

Asking the RIGHT QUESTIONS will give people a SUPERIOR Understanding of the REALITIES of the vast world of GENUINE Human Sexuality (not just the parts that get a heap of dishonest lip service).

So next time someone asks you, “Are you Polyamorous or Monogamous?” tell them “That’s The Wrong Question,” and send them to read this article.

Or as I tell people jokingly nowadays who insist on asking me The Wrong Question:
“Its best if you think of me as Polyamorous although I cannot promise you that I am ever going to have sex with anyone else.”

EDIT:
Just a quick note to reiterate that the main article above, “Monogamy vs Polyamory – THE WRONG QUESTION” is not so much intended to be any kind of massive defense for the cause of Polyamory, as much as open the minds of people to re-think the concept of Monogamy in light of the REALITIES of what so-called “Monogamy” generally tends to ACTUALLY entail. Juxtaposing this with the VAST MISCONCEPTIONS about Polyamory, my goal is that people should have their eyes opened to the FULL SPECTRUM of activity and preferences that are available. I would like to see the ABSOLUTE END of the single, closed-minded, black & white question, “Are you Monogamous or Polyamorous” and have that question permanently replaced with a superior and intensely more comprehensive set of questions that truly tune-in to where an individual’s preferences lay on the SPECTRUM of possibilities. Making the Wide Parameters of that Spectrum cleanly apparent is a large part of the purpose of the article. It is NOT my intention to say that any one point on that spectrum, neither the extreme ends of the spectrum nor any of the numerous places in the middle, are better or more correct than any other point or preference.

Its all about Being Honest With Yourself.

You can contact Arcane through The Crow Academy and read more advice and writings here. Follow Arcane @CrowAcademy as well as on Facebook. His new book Igniting the Fire is available now on Amazon.

anniebear Interviews Wry: Non Monogomy Consultant

April 26, 2016 By anniebear 1 Comment

anniebear: You’re an educator, specializing in teaching about polyamorous relationships, non monogamy, and managing multiple partners. And there are a lot of ways to describe poly such as non-monogamous and then there’s “monogamish” that’s been thrown around more lately. How would you describe yourself and your relationships?

Wry: I practice a form of descriptive hierarchy with egalitarian feminism with D/s BDSM elements. That’s a whole lot of key words and terms that people are going to be Googling, because none of that is particularly well known. Not nearly as popular as the words polyamory or non monogamy.

As it is, even non-monogamy needs to be defined, because people disagree on what that means. What does monogamy even mean? I’ve known swingers who identify as monogamists, because they are describing their heart: they only have one loving relationship and everything else is just casual fun for them.

Now I’m not saying that all swingers are that way. I’m just saying that all three words are so hard to define and they’re regional. Even within the region, people will disagree. Why is that? Well we’re coining these terms. A lot of words like love have been around for hundreds of years, but the word polyamorous was coined around 1991.

So it’s a really new word.

It’s extremely new. It was coined by Morning Glory and it wasn’t exactly spelled as “polyamorous”. You can Google this and find the exact story.

She wrote an article called “A Bouquet of Lovers” and that was the first time the word polyamorous was ever in print. About one year later, there was a message board called Polyamory. 1991-92 is how new this word is. It doesn’t mean the concept is that new, but the word itself is, so the definition can be difficult to pin down.

And I could see how it becomes really confusing for people just starting out and trying to explore it.

There are two huge schools of thought on this. One is we need as many words and labels as possible in order to clarify what we’re talking about and to be on the same page. The other camp is the idea that labels are inherently confusing, thus, the more we divide and label everything, the more we’ll be confused and be stuck in whatever self-identifications we have, instead of fluidity and freedom to move about.

Monogamy is inherently this very established, traditional, mainstream concept that many people are stuck in. We’re looking to break out of that and have more options. At least have the options. To be clear, I am very pro-monogamy. I think if you’re monogamous and you’re happy, then you’re happy. And if you’re whatever alternative style and you’re happy, then you’re happy. I consider myself Relationship Positive.

Wry pictured with his three girlfriends.

Right, whatever your relationship is to you and it works for you that’s you’re thing and go get em’!

Yes. I end up being the Contrarian Defender. When people are talking shit about a particular style, I end up defending monogamy against some of the more aggressive polyamory activists. I defend hierarchy against relationship anarchy people. I defend DADT (Don’t Ask Don’t Tell) against everyone, (laughs) because that one’s probably the most popular style, but also the most hated.

Sure, yea that one sounds really scary to me! (Laughs) but that’s me.

Well, it all sounds scary to somebody. Monogamy is scary as hell to me. I can’t do it. I’m incapable. In the past, I have had some very successful relationships that were monogamous. The last one that I had I ended, because she wanted my babies. I do not want to have children ever. And she wanted not just babies, but mine in particular, and that was the end. I’ve never been monogamous since. Not for more than, a group of months. The intention is always to be open and polyamorous in some way.

Got it, so you kind of answered this a little bit a second ago. Do you believe in the theory that some people are hardwired to be either monogamous or poly? Similar to people being either vanilla or kinky?

We’re getting into genetics here. DNA and Nature vs. Nurture and environment. We’re getting into free will and choice. I think there are imperfect parallels that you can draw when it comes to sexual identity. You’ve got basically heterosexual, homosexual, and pansexual and if you want to draw the direct parallel, you might have all these different spectrums and false dichotomies. It often seems like it’s an On-Off switch, but it’s not. One of the mix ups people make is thinking that polyamory and open relationships are on the same spectrum. They might say, “I’m more open than I am poly” or “I’m more poly then I am open”. But that’s really comparing apples and oranges. Really where you have it is open vs. closed OR polyamory vs monoamory. Those are direct opposites.

I think that we’re born as an amorphous mess of brain cells that have very little coherency. With our DNA plus influence from every little element of our environment, somehow we find an identity. And hen we end up changing identities over the course of a lifetime.

As a young man, I identified as traditionally monogamous, seeking one marriage partner for life, no other pre-marital sex. That was my goal for as far as I could remember up until my early twenties. Now I’m Mr. Polyamorous Guy. I wouldn’t change it for anyone, no matter what. It’s so much a part of my identity. It’s hard to even picture that old version of me that was monogamous. So on some level, there’s no agreed upon word for it, but it’s like we’re all poly-flexible on some level. Now, of course, there are extremists and now I have become one. We joke around about celebrity crushes and people ask me, “Would you go monogamous for your celebrity crush?” And the answer is absolutely not.

I wouldn’t, I can’t. It is emotionally painful for me to try to function in a non-polyamorous, closed relationship. I feel trapped. I get kind of crazy with jealousy. I’m always trying to enforce rules. I’m just a bad guy when I try to be monogamous.

That’s interesting that you go to the opposite extreme with monogamy. To be the enforcer with the jealousy and rules.

Rules and respect are incredibly important to me, no matter what style I’m practicing. A lot of people don’t agree with me. They hate the words rules. They want to use concepts like personal boundaries, agreements, negotiations; I don’t have an issue with the word rules, so I use it. You break a rule, then I’m pissed and I’m hurt, I’m insulted and offended. We agreed to this! This is not just me going top down, nor do I dictate what all the rules will be. It’s an agreement and negotiation.

I remember when I was monogamous when my long term girlfriend got drunk on her birthday and made out with her friend who was a girl, but not her girlfriend. I got very upset by this, because there was nobody on earth that I was allowed to make out with and it didn’t feel fair to me. I wanted the same freedom she had.

There is a bit of a double standard there.

There is. And I think that double standard is actually the key to the mainstream coming to understand polyamory. The typical fantasy, the mainstream Playboy-Hustler kind of mentality, is that you’ve got a monogamish situation. That’s also a new word, relatively. Dan Savage coined it around 2004; I believe he’s personally responsible for that word.

People talk about, “Hey, let’s have a relationship and get married and maybe someday we’ll play around with a threesome and bring in another girl”. Or, “it would be so great for me to watch my girlfriend make out with another woman”. Inherently, that is compersion. Erotic and kinky as well. Many are in denial that this is a polyamorous compersion moment where their partner is having great erotic and fun joy with someone else. The mainstream already relates and understands this scenario. They think it’s great! They masturbate to this concept and they talk about it, even when they’re just in bed with each other. It’s all over the news and movies. And yet, we don’t usually refer to that as compersion, for some reason, but it is.

People call it fantasies.

Yes! And what’s wrong with that, right? It’s CNM (Consensual Non-Monogamy). And fully ethical in my book. People are often in denial about how non-monogamous they really are, internally in thought and desire, if not externally in action as well.

So where would you like to see the future of poly and open relationships go in the mainstream? Do you want it to go so far as to be able to legally marry multiple people or just more of an acceptance?

It’s a big question. There are a lot of directions it needs to go. Number one, the most important thing on a legal basis is an anti-discrimination law regarding this lifestyle. Currently in America, you can’t be discriminated against for your religion, gender, or race, but you can be discriminated against for having two girlfriends or 2 husbands. If you have a morality clause that you’ve signed with a family-friendly corporation, you can get fired if you post the wrong picture on Facebook.

Similarly, the number one issue in my opinion, and in the opinion of John Pérez, the Speaker of the House of California who is openly gay: the number one issue in LGBTQ activism is not gay marriage, but gay firing. What’s happening is a gay marriage on Sunday, then on Monday you post about it on Facebook and update your status, and by Tuesday, you’re fired. That’s legal in 28 states right now.

Wow, I had no idea.

Most people don’t realize this, because we’re in the insulated Left Coast bubble of California where we think everything is so liberal, even though it’s not. This issue is not even being broached in the slightest when it comes to polyamory and non-monogamy. Not in the slightest. The fact is that you can get fired for being polyamorous. People are in utter denial and I have to tell them anecdote after anecdote about people who are scared. They’re at work scared to reveal themselves even online in conversation.

There’s a local researcher and PHD student named Ryan Witherspoon, good friend of mine ,he’s joined me on stage. He’s done a lot of research about the stress and stigma of identifying as polyamorous. There are situations that make us run away into the closet. We usually use the term “closet” to talk about homosexuality, but polyamory absolutely has a closet, BDSM has a closet, etc.

When you show up to the Christmas party with three dates you, better believe there’s going to be rumors and gossiping and issues with that. And if I show up with a rotation of partners- one girlfriend for this business dinner- then I show up with a different partner and them another a few months later with the other partner. Well, then the hushed voices start and they say, “Are you still with her? I liked the first one. What happened?!”

I’m dating all of them!

Right, I’m dating all of them. Settled down; we’re still together! It’s been four years, two years, and one year. That’s the actual numbers for my three girlfriends who have other partners as well, some of which are into the one year anniversary territory. They’re steady and stable too. Until they are not. No matter. Monogamous couples breakup and get back together too. We’re not all that different.

And we all have casual partners too. We’re a little wild. We’re not mimicking hetero-normativity, mono-normativity. That’s not our lives. We’re also selective. We’re not having sex with everybody. I literally turn down attractive, willing women who approach me for sex quite often. I’m not bragging, I’m demonstrating a point. There are tons of memes about this, such as: “Yes, I’m open and poly, but NO, I won’t have sex with you.”

Right because it’s not necessarily what it’s about. It’s not a numbers game

Even if you’re monogamous and single, a lot of monogamous-identified single people are having multiple sex partners in a given week or month. They are completely free to do as they wish. And they certainly do. Nobody just assumes that if you’re single, you’ll sleep with me. It’s not that simple of a situation. It’s a person to person consent issue, not just an assumption of sex. At least, it should be person to person.

Have you ever received direct negative backlash from family or friends because of your lifestyle?

Yes. Very much so. There are portions of my family that think I’m ruining society.

How dare you.

There are family members who just don’t want to talk about it. They have their issue with what I’m doing. Code of silence. When I talk about my successes or if I say, “Check out the interview I did yesterday on KinkyWeekly”, they refuse. They won’t look. They’ll just say, “That’s not my thing, but congrats. I don’t agree with your lifestyle.”

And then there are other family members that just laugh and think I’m funny. They see me as some kind of single bachelor that’s living a wild life and that there’s no seriousness or commitment to my relationships.

Right, which is annoying as well.

There are the ones that just get it and they’re really into what I’m doing as an activist and educator, even though they have their happy marriage of a decade+. They’re just so happy for me and they have friends who are like me. Of course, that tends to be the younger generations. But don’t get me wrong, it is not easy to be out about poly to everyone on earth. That is not an easy thing and I don’t recommend it for everyone. I don’t think that everyone has the mental and emotional and financial freedom and privilege to be as out as I am. That’s a huge reason why I’m doing it, because I can. I can handle it in all those ways. Plus, intersectionality is important. If you’re already dealing with other discrimination in your life, then it’s harder to add an additional difficulty to it, especially when it’s so optional. We’re an invisible sexual minority group. You can’t walk down the street and just pick out who the polyamorous people are. It’s like skin color or even a gay pride flag. Most people have no idea there is a poly flag and wouldn’t notice it on the street.

Switching gears a bit, you’re classes have been doing really well. Wry Talks and Poly Relationships; I know you’ve been teaching at Stockroom and some universities and now you’ve teamed up with Janet Hardy, the author of The Ethical Slut. Do you want to talk a bit about what’s coming up next for you guys?

The Poly Talks and Wry Relationships panel discussion at Stockroom in Los Angeles.

Yes! We’re working on some dates outside of California. It’s too soon to announce all dates, but I am working on a nation wide tour over the next 18 months. Some of those dates have been set and there will be other special guests like Tristan Taormino (author of Opening Up and a dozen other books). And Janet Hardy will join me again onstage. Plus many more special guests. Remember, Janet co-authored not only The Ethical Slut, but also a dozen other books. They are both legends in this field. The Ethical Slut was published in 1997. I honestly think she changed America, along with her co-author Dossie Easton. At the time, Janet using a pen name in 97’ and couldn’t use her real name for various reasons. So a lot of people didn’t even realize it was her until later when they put out the second edition in 2009. We have a real mutual respect for each other. We don’t agree on every little issue, but nobody does.

Well if its two people with the exact same ideas going across the country teaching things then you don’t get the whole perspective.

It’s true and there’s a generational issue too. I’m 32 and she’s 61. It’s literally a generation gap of difference. I can’t imagine what it was like to try to be polyamorous in the 90’s when she was forging the path. I have no concept of that and of actually the lived experience of that.

It makes for very lively debates on each other’s Facebook wall. I love that. Conversing deeply, onstage and off, with my idols and literature mentors is just incredible. They inspire me constantly. I really value the words and insight of queer women.

Wry and Janet Hardy, author of The Ethical Slut.

That’s incredible, I’m personally a huge fan of The Ethical Slut. It was one of the first books I read when I got into the BDSM lifestyle and I think its really incredible that you’ve managed to make all of this come together, its really great for everyone to benefit from it. Are the people coming to your classes is it primarily lifestlyers or people fro the general public or curious?

That question is similar to who goes to a sex toy shop.

Right! (laughs)

There are percentages that lean toward the lifestyle and others lean toward the more open minded, but there are curious people who just go in and look around. There are monogamous people who will never experiment with this lifestyle that will come to my events in order to be exposed to it and to learn about it and to have their curiosity sated. That can feel a bit like a circus sideshow, but I’m quite the entertainer, so I love it. There are a lot of couples who are actively in the process of opening up which I always recommend to them to buy the book Opening Up by Tristan Taomino. Because I have little experience in opening up. I’ve done it maybe once or twice. The rest of the time, I’ve tried to start open and poly from day one and stay that way. I greatly dislike the idea of forming an established, monogamous relationship for months or years, and then trying to open that up. So there’s only so much I know about that process and no one is better at teaching it than Tristan. I can’t wait to join her on stage in San Diego around June 23rd. We’re still solidifying some details. It will be sometime that weekend.

Got it. For someone maybe looking for a relationship or has discovered that they are more interested in a non monogamous or potential poly situation, what advice would you offer them?

Number one goal: Seek community. Whether it’s online or locally, you need actual friends living this life as role models, because there are none. If you look to mainstream theatre and film, the last mainstream film that I’m aware of that had any kind of consensual non-monogamy was “Savages” in 2012. That was four years ago! How many films have featured monogamy in them since then? All of them? (Laughs)

In recent times Netflix and other networks like it are catering to the niches and specifically feature a lot more diversity in that are. “House of Cards” is a hot topic right now, featuring an open and consensual polyamorous marriage. Of course there are all kinds of other flaws in those lead characters, which is a problem. We’re seeing limited exposure of our lifestyle being presented by ethically flawed characters. But there will be more representation as time goes on. Since we don’t have much presence in the media, we need to seek our own representation and role models in the community. They’re our best source for advice and examples of what went right and how to avoid what might go wrong. Even the books that you might buy, which the three tops books are The Ethical Slut, Opening Up, and More Than Two, those are the three most important. If you’re doing this lifestyle and you haven’t read those books you’re being negligent. You’ve got to read those three books. Take the time and do it!

Even those books tend to lean toward what works. Sometimes you learn the most from what really crashed and burned. You’re going to get both from your community: the horror stories and the process of growth, since we all go through this. I’m constantly reminding people that I used to be a virgin! It’s true. Really.

Also, I used to be monogamous. I was not always this conversant on the topic. So don’t expect yourself to be from day one saying, “Oh I just declared yesterday that I’m polyamorous and now I know everything and I know how to do this.” The reality is that this is a second adolescence. I have co-opted and pulled that term from gay and trans culture when you suddenly declare yourself as a new sexual identity. There is a learning process that takes 4 or 5 years, not 4 or 5 months.

It’s almost like you’re 14 again. You don’t know how to talk to your crush and then you muster the courage and do it, finally. You get up the nerve or they hit on you and get over your bashfulness. Your first handful of relationships are super rocky and bizarre. You don’t know what you’re doing, but you think you do. You picture someone as a lifelong partner. You start fantasizing about exchanging last names and then you grow up. You’re an adult and you go, “Wow, I didn’t know nothin back then.”

Most importantly, we have to forgive ourselves. I’m not saying this to denounce anyone. I’m saying we all need to have forgiveness of ourselves and to be understanding of each other. We’re all learning and growing. It never ends. Even at this point in my experience, I’m still learning all the time. I make mistakes often. People ask me, “How did you get here as an alt relationship educator?” and I tell them, “I fucked up a lot and then I figured out how I fucked up and how to fuck up less. “

I was actually going to ask if you’re willing to talk about any of your personal mistakes you might have made along the way.

Sure! That’s a big reason why I’m in these shoes today. I have no shame or qualms about admitting my failures and people appreciate that. It puts them at ease that they’re not some pathetic freak and that I’m some god of this stuff, because I’m not. I’m in a position of undeserved authority.

Ok here’s one: I was about two years into my relationship with Wicked. We’re going to have our four year anniversary next week.

Congratulations!

Thank you! Some people struggle to remember one anniversary. I’ve got three to remember. So I had a crush on this other girl for years, many years. And we had started dating each other. We had been dating about two months and I was overly excited. This was a big crush come true for me. She was excited and so was I and I got caught up in what’s called New Relationship Energy. NRE is a pretty common term in this community. In a nut shell, it’s an overwhelming amount of excitement and bonding with a new partner, also known as the Honeymoon Period.

It usually lasts three to six months, but you get caught up. And that’s not a problem when you’re only seeing one person, but when you already have established partners that can be very unnerving for them. It can feel like they’re not good enough or they’re being replaced. Abandonment issues can crop up. Or just the envy of, “Wow, you’re so excited for her. Why aren’t you that excited for me still? You used to be excited for me. I don’t mind that you’re excited for her. I just want you to be equally excited for me too.”

I’ve experience a lot of “me too.” That envy versus jealousy is an important distinction. Thinking I want to take it from you is jealousy vs. just me too. And now to circle around back to me point, here’s the mistake I made: I’m laying in bed next to Wicked texting this other girl and me and Wicked had just had sex and we’d just finished cuddling and were just chilling. But now I’m literally just laying there for ten minutes texting this other girl right next to Wicked. At some point, Wicked had enough of that and spoke up and said, “Do you have to do that right now?” And this wasn’t the first time that I’d been caught up in texting this new girl while with Wicked. I just had to admit it. Whoa. I really fucked up. I have to stop doing this. That’s it. And then we had to negotiate what was reasonable. I like to be responsive so if anyone texts me, I’ll send 1 or 2 texts back, but that’s it. You gotta cut it off at a respectful point.

That’s a really good example.

It’s important to remember that I’m in an undeserved position of authority. I have no license, no urge to get a license, no degree in this field, because there really isn’t one besides being a therapist. And I’m never going to seek that license, because I don’t want to be held back by anything. Licensing boards can be very discriminatory regarding what you say to the public and whether you can keep your license or not.

I want to be an open book. I want to tell the world about my mistakes and successes and all the naughty stuff that I do. This is my life. With that in mind, no one is the ultimate authority in these fields, even someone as legendary as Janet or Tristan or any of the other people that will be on stage with me across the nation. I purposely make a panel on that stage, not a singular voice. I’m not making a lecture. I don’t have a lesson plan. And we disagree on that stage by design.

It’s important to remember that once you break outside of hundreds of years of hetero-normativity, now you’re rewriting all of the rules and redefining everything. You’re coining new words. In the end, each person is their own personal authority and then later, you can learn from your mistakes and change your mind.

Having gained experience in multiple forms of non-monogamous relationship since 2002, Ryan “Wry” Mantione advocates being well-informed regarding options and alternatives to a hetero-normative, traditional love life, as well as maintaining dialogue with partners. Wry has featured as a speaker or panelist at the following: International Polyamory Conference 2015 at Berkeley,SPLA’s Redefining Sex in the 21st Century held at UCLA, Psychology of Close Relationships course at Harvey Mudd College, Infinite Love Community, and DomCon LA. you can contact Wry via his website or Fetlife.

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